Lucy Bolan: Welcome to season two of the CMO chapters podcast this year. I'm super excited, super thrilled to announce that we have an absolute whole fabulous host of CMOs, market leaders, experts within their field. Who've been very, very generous with that time to share some candid. pretty heartfelt, honest conversations around some personal career journeys that they've experienced.

Lucy Bolan: Also some lessons that they've learned along the way. This season, it's going to really be your action packed one stop shop toolbox for anything to do with career growth, professional development, um, leadership progression, and also importantly, what it really takes nowadays as a marketer to stand out in what is.

Lucy Bolan: as we know, a very competitive market. It's absolutely got all sorts for everybody. And I really hope you enjoy.

Lucy Bolan: Welcome to the CMO chapter podcast, where we dive deep into the dynamic world of chief marketing officers. Join us as we. Explore the careers, insights and strategies of top marketing executives who shape the brands we know and love, whether you're a seasoned marketer, aspiring CMO, or simply just curious to understand what it really takes to step into the shoes of the CMO.

Lucy Bolan: This podcast is your backstage past to discovering what it's like to really lead and. In the ever evolving landscape of business, stay tuned as we uncover the stories of the visionaries behind the brand.

Jac Phillips: Welcome. Thank you, Lucy. It is an absolute delight, honor, and privilege to be here. 

Lucy Bolan: Oh, thank you. Thank you. So I've been, it sounds a little bit stalkerish here, but I've been sort of a bit of a fan of Jack's for quite a while. I've been following Jack on, on LinkedIn and yeah, certainly through the fabulous podcast.

Lucy Bolan: But I really wanted to get you on the show today, really Really tap into a bit more detail around what you've been, what you've done, your background, um, and really discuss in more detail, um, I guess advice and tips you've got for those aspiring leaders out there that are looking to potentially go down the CMO path.

Lucy Bolan: Before we get to it, Jack, please feel free to introduce yourself. 

Jac Phillips: Oh, thank you, Lucy. Um, I'm a bit of a fan of yours too. I see all the, the great things that you do on LinkedIn, uh, and the fact that you've got a recruitment business, uh, and are trying to find talent and put talent in great roles, I think is a, an awesome purpose.

Jac Phillips: So, um, I think that, you know, there's some mutual admiration. Yeah, thank you. Who is she? Well, um, that's a very good question. She's still trying to figure that out herself. Um, I have been, I guess, uh, on a, an awesome journey. Um, I've had a career for about 35 years. Uh, that career kicked off in radio in a small town in New Zealand, uh, at school.

Jac Phillips: told off for talking. Uh, so I went and got paid for it instead because I was good at it. Uh, and so I went, went and joined a, a commercial, uh, radio station when I was very young, 20. And that was my first, uh, role was, uh, you know, on air and, and, and in commercial radio. And so media was where I started and, and then moved across.

Jac Phillips: the ditch, as they say, or the Dutch. And, uh, started my marketing career, uh, in Australia, though I did work in a couple more radio stations in my early, uh, days, um, which was fantastic. And that sort of, you know, helped me build my network. I didn't really know anyone in Australia when I arrived at, uh, 21.

Jac Phillips: From there, it seemed like a natural progression to go from sort of media into marketing. And I've always, always been curious about behavior and people. Um, Lucy, I really have. So anyone who's curious about behavior and people, uh, you know, and insights is, is likely to find themselves probably loving marketing and marketing as a career.

Jac Phillips: So, um, yeah, off I went into the world of marketing and, and I pretty much started in, in agency land, actually creative agency land. I moved from Canberra to Sydney and started in my first relationship marketing agency. Uh, and that was an awesome, um, experience. DM and RM, you know, direct marketing, relationship marketing was right up my alley because again, I was so curious about people.

Jac Phillips: I was probably more interested in that than I was above the line and, and advertising. Even though we were part of an advertising agency, the relationship marketing, uh, function was, was a, was a component of it. So, um, from there moved around Australia, working in different agencies, then found myself pregnant.

Jac Phillips: Goodness knows. Immaculate conception, of course. Um, and hightail it back to where my mother and father lived, which was Perth, WA at this point, because I'd need some help. And, um, again, worked in some agencies and set up a little consulting business while I was at home with two very, very little babies. Uh, so quickly had another one following the first and, um.

Jac Phillips: Decided I could manage. I had two good kids. They were pretty easy. 

Lucy Bolan: I 

Jac Phillips: was pretty organized. I had a lot of help. I had my mother in law across the road. I had mum up the road. So I thought, look, um, I can probably go and do a little bit of, um, marketing, consulting, and advising, which is what I did. And it kept me.

Jac Phillips: Interested and, uh, I guess a little bit more interesting because I, I, whilst I love being a mum, I also just needed something, um, with, with the brain. And I was also, I guess, conscious of not becoming irrelevant or losing too much, I guess, information and or training and development by being, uh, at home full time.

Jac Phillips: Okay. So this is back in the days where organisations certainly, you know, weren't doing the parental leave support that they might do today. Yeah. So while I was at home, I said to my husband, I'd love to go to Asia and work in Asia. I had seen some really interesting things going on in Asia. I was reading.

Jac Phillips: Uh, and so he said, well, do it. Uh, he's always been my, my biggest supporter and he was always around for the kids, which meant I had that, um, ability to, to do that. So off I trotted up to Singapore and had a chat to a couple of recruitment agencies, a couple of Lucy's that were up, and They looked at me, they looked at my resume, they said, this is interesting, nothing here at the moment, but we'll stay in touch.

Jac Phillips: I don't think I was home a week and I got a call and it was Leo Burnett saying they were looking for a client services director for a component of their business, which was relationship marketing. And I got a gig in Singapore, so we moved the family up to Singapore and that was in the year 2000. Gosh.

Jac Phillips: So 25 years ago. 

Lucy Bolan: And, and, you know, when you look back, cause. I know you've, you know, since then, I mean, you were obviously with A and Z for like banking for a long time. And, um, I understand, I think it was Visa was the last. Visa was my last corporate gig. Yeah. How did you, I mean, I, I sort of, you know, I'll give you my, my opinion here, but I sort of look at people like yourself and, you know, you, you do come across as very confident, you, you know, have this infectious sort of energy and enthusiasm and.

Lucy Bolan: You know, you look back at, I look at LinkedIn, you look it back at your career and it seems like, how have you? You know, seize these opportunities. Like, is it down to honestly good networking? Is it down to luck? Like what's the secret formula? 

Jac Phillips: That's a great question. And one I've probably not reflected on much.

Jac Phillips: I've missed out on way more jobs than I've ever had. You know, so this idea that I've just gone from one job to the other, and it's all being tickety boo. You know, that's the Instagram look and feel, but it's completely not reality. Um, and I've been given some hard feedback in my time and I've probably missed out on a lot of feedback that I should have been given in my time for their reasons.

Jac Phillips: But I just kept going. I just kept believing in myself, I guess. And you know, look, a lot of it was bluff. Uh, I had a father who was incredible, uh, and he's still alive today and still a bit of a mentor without him even realizing it. I remember saying to him in my first serious challenge I had when I was at the radio station in WA and, uh, we were downsizing, you know, media, everyone was cutting budgets.

Jac Phillips: And I was told, not only will you have an on air segment, but you're also going to need to learn how to produce commercials. We need you in the production studio four mornings a week for three hours. 

Lucy Bolan: And 

Jac Phillips: I was put in the studio and shown the 16 track desk, which looked like something in the front of an airplane.

Jac Phillips: I remember calling my father saying, Oh, I don't know what I'm doing and I can't do this. And he said. How do you know you can't do it? And I said, what do you mean? He said, well, have you given it a crack? And I said, no, he said, well, don't have a go at it. Then call me and tell me you can't do it. And of course, like anything, I, I, I, I learned very quickly.

Jac Phillips: It wasn't actually that difficult. Um, I needed, I needed a few hours to practice and of course I did the better I got and that stayed with me. You know, if you don't have a go and if you don't put yourself forward, how. Will you ever know? Yeah. Um, and most people that hire you aren't hiring you to fail, they're hiring you to succeed because their reputation's on the line.

Jac Phillips: So I sort of took, I think, a lot of that with me when I would go for roles and think, well, this is a bit of a stretch, but I need the stretch. I don't want to stay where I am. And I want to learn something new. I want to work for somebody different. So I should expect that I don't know it all and it will be different.

Jac Phillips: And that's okay. The self talk, I think, positive self talk just kept me applying for things and giving things a go. The network has played a massive, massive role. role in my, in my trajectory. And my network has never worked harder for me than it does now and, and, and how timely, because I work for myself and I need that, you know, to, to work.

Jac Phillips: Um, I don't have a, you know, a, a, a corporate role to, to, to lean on. I'm, I'm, I am my, my pipeline. 

Lucy Bolan: I am the future. Yeah. I heard a saying, um, recently, actually, that my network is my net worth. Oh. Oh, mmm. That's so, so true. 

Jac Phillips: It's a really interesting one, the network. I don't know whether you're okay to get into this now, but of course I coach so many people and particularly senior level women and a lot of female marketers.

Lucy Bolan: And 

Jac Phillips: I'll often say to me, you know, I'll say, how's your network? Uh, you know, what, what, how networked are you? And the first thing I'll go is I hate that whole term network. I hate the idea of having to go out and network. And I said, it really does need a rebrand because of. I've got a feeling the way I'm thinking about networking and the way you're thinking about networking is different.

Jac Phillips: And they say how so? And I say networking is about what you can actually do for others. When you are relying on your network to help you, which is usually when you want another job or your next job or a new job, 

Lucy Bolan: it's 

Jac Phillips: actually too late because if you are helping people all the way through and talking to people and being really open and genuinely Uh, building and interested in helping others and helping new people, then when the time comes.

Jac Phillips: That reciprocation is there, people will absolutely help you and people will talk about you and they will promote you. 

Lucy Bolan: Yeah. Yeah. I, I completely agree with that completely. I, I have a personal KPI where once a week I'll introduce five people for coffees with other people, whether it's CMOs with CMOs or, and you know, I'm not.

Lucy Bolan: It's not like a charge for that, you know, but I think, well, you know, you get remembered and you've spoken about, and you know, you're also doing some good. There's so much 

Jac Phillips: value in 

Lucy Bolan: that. 

Jac Phillips: I 

Lucy Bolan: get 

Jac Phillips: genuine joy, delight, and purpose out of connecting people. I mean, it's part of my proposition as an executive coach.

Jac Phillips: So when you sign up for me, I actually create a package for you. And within that packages, I will introduce you to new networks. I will access networks that you've not accessed before, if it's relevant and if it's appropriate. Yeah. Um, and I, I spent an hour last night connecting two or three really great people with some other people.

Jac Phillips: And it's something I really look forward to doing. 

Lucy Bolan: Looking back at your career and knowing everything that you know now, is there any advice that you think, you know what, I'd have given that Jack Phillips when she was 28 years old, a bit of, a bit of advice, what words of wisdom would you share? 

Jac Phillips: How long have you got?

Jac Phillips: So if you are a leader or you are somebody coming through the Rancid Centre this podcast now, you've got clearly great taste because you're listening to this. But the advice I would give myself, look, back yourself. You deserve a seat at the table. You know, imposter syndrome creeps in at 28, at 48, at 58, at 78, would you believe it?

Jac Phillips: That just never leaves you, but you don't worry about that. You just work through it. You know, you're more capable than you give yourself credit for, yeah? And confidence comes from action. So speak up, share your ideas, you know, trust that your perspective is valuable, um, realize that relationships matter more than titles.

Jac Phillips: Success isn't just about climbing this corporate ladder, it's actually about building these strong genuine relationships, your network as we talk about, yeah. The connections you make now, the mentors, the peers, the clients, the mentees, they'll shape your career in ways that you would never predict. So always invest in those relationships.

Lucy Bolan: Um, 

Jac Phillips: get comfortable with discomfort. Yeah. Uncertainty. Uncertainty is exciting. There's only two certainties, sadly, death and taxes. And the fact I'll have a glass of wine on a Friday, that's three certainties. But growth happens outside of our comfort zone. Whenever. I have actually excelled or learned more about myself.

Jac Phillips: It's when I've actually done something I've been a bit scared about. Yeah, I've actually tried something in a job. I've gone on to something and I thought, I don't really know what I'm doing, but I'll figure it out. I'll ask others, I'll read or I'll learn. So say yes before you feel a hundred percent ready.

Jac Phillips: Um, and think beyond the job. Yeah. I talk about personal brands a lot. Build your brand, right? Your reputation is your current. It really is. It's not just about excelling in your role. You know, it's about being known for something, you know, start writing, start speaking, mentor others. Your personal brand will open doors long before you realize you need them.

Jac Phillips: My awesome podcast cohost, Gabrielle Dolan, Raul, you know, she says, what's a personal brand. It's not what you say about yourself. It's what others say about you when you're not. And it's so true. Yeah. And we've all got a personal brand, whether you like it or not. The difference is some of us are trying to shape and control our personal brand, whereas others don't.

Jac Phillips: That's a worry. And I think finally play the long game. Yeah. Balance results, reputation. Yes. They matter. Of course we need results. You need results to demonstrate you, you know, you craft, you're an expert or. You are, uh, qualified. Um, but how you achieve results really matters here. You know, who you are is actually more important than what you do.

Jac Phillips: Um, think about the long term and maybe 

Lucy Bolan: exercise a bit of patience. I think that was some fantastic ingredients you've given us, given us there. So I love it. Love it. I want to ask a question. So, I mean, a lot of the listeners that, that listened to this podcast are, as I've said, you know, aspiring CMOs, or, you know, there might be at that mid level management remit and the thing about, you know, I really want to get to that head of, or, you know, next level, what is it that you should probably be aware of that, you know, when we're going into leadership until you're in it, you kind of go, Oh, right.

Lucy Bolan: aware of that, you know, what would you say to those or give those individuals? What piece of advice would you give them? 

Jac Phillips: I think as you are growing and learning and developing, get a coach, you know, and, and I don't say that. I mean, I've, I've had coaches for years and they've absolutely made a difference to me.

Jac Phillips: So somebody that she makes you stop and look in the mirror and reflect, because I was really good at bum down, head up, just go forward. My idea of reflection was, was, was an hour earlier, nothing, nothing more, um, again, being in a bit of a hurry, being quite ambitious. So what that means when you're not.

Jac Phillips: reflecting. It means that you're not actually stopping and thinking about what are my strengths? Have I changed? What do I want to dial up? What do I want to dial down? And also, what do I bring to the table? And I mentioned that before, be really clear about who you are. This comes back to unique value proposition.

Jac Phillips: I think Lucy, really, you know, what makes you different from other? people, you know, what's going to help you stand out? And that really is defining your superpower or your, or your strengths. You know, are you a growth strategist? Are you a brand builder? Or are you a customer insights guru? Whatever it is, whatever it is that is.

Jac Phillips: And you can be a generalist too, but there will be something in there that is very much your wheelhouse, the stuff that really fires you up. Well, what is it about that, that makes you different or better than somebody else who's the same? Yeah. So you need to position yourself and the answer to that to solving business problems.

Jac Phillips: Yeah. But so, so you're not just another marketer, you're having this clear narrative around, you know, what ties together your experience, also your impact. And that is that strong personal brand. Here's what people. Tell me I do really, really well. And here are some proof points to demonstrate how I've done that really, really well.

Jac Phillips: Um, we, I used to giggle, you know, the marketing department, yeah, the calorie in department often had huge budgets and I never, ever took advantage of that. I was so. I guess privileged and, and honored that I was a trustee of that money on behalf of that brand or organization. But if I wasn't showing results and showing the commercial acumen and saying, well, this is how we're getting the return on the investment.

Jac Phillips: This is how we're going to track these results and measure them. This is how we know this is going to work. Or if we don't know what's going to work, we're going to do a test and learn first. So it's the ability to be able to take all of those things and demonstrate your commercial now. It's your commercial.

Jac Phillips: And that has to be also about the strategic acumen that you've got to, so showcasing that and being able to do that in a way that really shows revenue growth, you know, cost savings, ROI, um, partnerships and relationship building. So you should be a marketer that absolutely understands the value of strategic partnerships internally as much as externally.

Jac Phillips: Some of the best work I've done, and particularly in my later years where I was given access to really great resources, and I had a lot of influence was. Partnering with things that maybe the brands weren't traditionally known to partner with. Visa, you know, a fairly, a fairly traditional, conventional digital payments network is that was digital.

Jac Phillips: Um, obviously it became digital. What was, was plastic initially, but saying, you know, actually, if we want kids to use Visa on their phone, then we need to be where the kids are. Where are they? Oh, they're at festivals. Yeah. So how do I get Visa? And how do I make sure that experience isn't because we're trying to sell somebody something, but it's actually trying to enhance their festival experience.

Jac Phillips: And so working in a way that, and showing people that you've got a really creative and broader thinking when it comes to you compared to others, I think, you know, that that's how you're memorable. That's how you show initiative 

Lucy Bolan: and creativity. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. No, completely. I, I wanted to ask.

Lucy Bolan: Throughout your career, I mean, you know, when people become leaders and I know from that for one, when I became a leader myself, it was almost right off you go sink or swim and no rule book or instruction manual that comes with that. And so. Was it a case that, did you learn your, did you shape your leadership skills from looking at other leaders that you admired?

Lucy Bolan: And I mean, you know, we know that there's leaders out there that you go, absolutely not. I want to avoid that completely. But you know what? I love that. And I love how you've operated that. So how did you shape your leadership style? 

Jac Phillips: Yeah, exactly. Exactly how you described. I have worked with some fuckwits.

Jac Phillips: I can tell you right. At, at, at the very senior levels, people that were paid extraordinarily well. who treated others appallingly and who actually were there because of their network. Yeah. The irony, right? Yeah. Um, but I learned from them. I learned how not to be. And I sort of knew that anyway. Okay.

Jac Phillips: Because there was a misalignment of my values and their values anyway. But, but I also, it, it reinforced and reminded me how powerful leadership is when it is done well and how awful and impactful it is when it's not done well. And it's actually been leadership that has driven me. And I guess. My growth has been around how do I become a really good leader, a leader that cares for people, but holds them accountable, a leader that is fair, but firm.

Jac Phillips: It's very similar to parenting in many, many ways. If I was their best friend, then I wasn't being a good leader. However, I also needed to build relationships that were, you know, uh, deep and meaningful with people. And I cared about them. I cared about them way more. Then I did the work actually, uh, because I cottoned on pretty quickly based on my own experience being led by a very good leader and being led by a very bad leader.

Jac Phillips: The difference in the incremental value I would offer if I worked for someone who really stretched me and took a real interest in me and believed in me. And I've always said, you know, what is my USP as a person? And it is to unlock the, or my purpose I should say, is to unlock the potential of brands and people.

Jac Phillips: Yeah. And I have been doing that for a very, very long time. I was doing it as a junior leader. Yeah. Trying to unlock the potential of a brand, but also because I had relationships in agencies. I had relationships. It's one or two, maybe one direct report at the time. If I could unlock that person's, uh, potential and or the agency through great relationships, then I would be successful because I can't do all the work.

Jac Phillips: I'm, I'm not an island. Uh, in fact, the, the more senior you become, the less on the tools you are, of course. Uh, and that's something that I talk about a lot to, to my clients. So, so, so get a great coach, uh, learn from the leaders you've got and the best leaders I work for question things. They used absolutely critical analysis and curiosity all the time.

Jac Phillips: They coached their people. They were great coaches. Um, they wouldn't tell us exactly what to do. They might tell us what the outcome was they wanted. And then they would encourage us to think about how we would get there. 

Lucy Bolan: And one of 

Jac Phillips: the best questions any leader can ask their team or individuals in their team is what's the barrier that would stop you from doing this?

Lucy Bolan: Yeah, 

Jac Phillips: yeah, yeah, yeah. Be a mindset or, um, something that we don't know as a leader. So you learn so much from leaders and it has been leadership that has driven me because I love. Great leadership. And I see the positive impact it has not just on teams and on the brand and the business, but also on families.

Jac Phillips: Yeah. Because we all take our work home. Our work comprises of so much of our lives. And if you've got miserable staff because you're a miserable shit of a leader, then that's. Um, actually play havoc on people's personal lives. And I, that, that's something I have a real issue with because no job is, is worth it.

Jac Phillips: Oh, 

Lucy Bolan: absolutely. And as a recruiter, I had all sorts of, you can imagine. Oh. I can imagine. Every day. Well, not every day, but regularly. Um, one question I do have, and I'd love to get your thoughts on this. So I often have myself, you know, a lot of, a lot of marketers that, you know, they go for interviews. And one thing they're looking forward to your point is really, really amazing leaders.

Lucy Bolan: And it's, it's hard because it's like, you know, it's, you know, you're in a chocolate shop and you're like, well, they all look absolutely amazing. And then you might taste one and go, Oh God, now I'm not going back for that. And only once you're in there and you've purchased, you know, so how do we, you know, when you're at that interview stage, is there any.

Lucy Bolan: Questions or any advice you give in terms of the task? Oh, yes, yes, 

Jac Phillips: yes, yes. There are so many things. I coach on this a lot. Yeah. Your relationship with your leader, and I guess to some extent the relationship they have with their leader, is going to absolutely shape whether you have a great experience or not.

Jac Phillips: Yeah. That doesn't mean to say you should look for somebody who is a mirror image to you. Diversity is important. When you are being interviewed, you should always have questions. That are very much directed at your leader or new leader. And those questions should, should, they, they, they need to align to your needs.

Jac Phillips: And of course your needs change at different times, right? So my needs as a 32 year old mother in the workplace are very different to my needs when I was a 52 year old. Head of Marketing for Visa Australia, New Zealand, South Pacific. I have different needs from a personal perspective. Yeah, but most importantly, what are your needs for your future direction?

Jac Phillips: So where are you going and where do you want to go? And is this going to be the right leader for you? So there are a number of questions. One of the first questions should be okay. If I am a 35 year old mum or dad, flexibility is pretty important. I do want to be working remotely or even if I'm not worried about working remotely, will I have the support of the leadership if I need to be at home with a child or child care is falling over or whatever.

Jac Phillips: So being able to ask that question really up front. Yeah. Talk to me about. Uh, people in the organization that have families, you know, how, how does it work when it comes to remote working? Well, how does it work when it comes to flexibility? Have no issue in asking that question. If you are worried that if you ask that question, that it might mean you don't get the role, then that was never going to be the right answer.

Jac Phillips: Yeah. So, so the more direct and upfront you can be about this stuff, the better. The other thing is, you know, trying to understand from this leader, what are they doing that's really making a difference in the organization and how do they, uh, use development and how do they support people in order to grow and stretch them?

Jac Phillips: Because you're obviously going to be evaluating that for yourself, right? Yeah. Um, how would they define success? You know, what, what a success in this role and the person coming in, if it's you, then what are they expecting of them to try and get a bit of a sense of, okay, is this going to be a job I can absolutely give my all, but I'm being supported, you know, what's the.

Jac Phillips: How would you describe the culture and, and, and who was the last person you promoted and how did that, how did that work? The more information you can ask about that leader and their style and the sort of decisions they make around the things that will matter to you and your future, the better insights you're going to get in order to say, well, actually, I think that's going to be the right place for me, or I'm not sure I'm going to thrive there.

Jac Phillips: Uh huh. Uh huh. When 

Lucy Bolan: you look back at your career, were there any, were there, cause. Were there any aha moments or, you know, that sort of like golden lightbulb moment for you when you were like, Oh, okay, I've got the full package now. 

Jac Phillips: Well, no, there were golden lightbulb moments of like, Oh my God, I can't believe it.

Jac Phillips: You know, what a disaster I, I created and, and, but I've learned a lot from it and thank goodness that happened. Um, but when you say the full package expand on that, what do you mean? 

Lucy Bolan: Well, you know, getting to that, I guess, you know, real sort of moment of perhaps career euphoria where it's like, you know what, I'm happy, I'm confident, I've got a thriving team.

Lucy Bolan: I've got a, you know, was there ever that moment you got to where it was like, you know what, this is great. Um, you know, that moment in my career where I'm, I've never been happier. 

Jac Phillips: Yeah. Look, I'm an incredibly happy person and I'm an optimistic person. I'm very rarely unhappy. That's not to say I haven't had clustered up jobs.

Jac Phillips: I have been miserable in those jobs, but I, I don't, I don't stay miserable. I don't stay in something that doesn't work. Yeah. Um, but every role has been a hoot and a learning experience here. And I've met so many people who've rocked my world. I really have, as well as the Dick kids that we spoke about and they are to teach that they teach us, you know, how, how to behave and how not to behave.

Jac Phillips: Um, every role has been a gift. I reckon the last. I mean, I was 10 years at ANZ, Lucy. I tried to talk ANZ out of hiring me because I said, I'm just not a banking type. I'd just come back from Singapore and I met an awesome guy who was leading the marketing for the financial planning unit. And he said, yep, no, we need you.

Jac Phillips: I need someone senior to me that can do this. You just come back from Singapore. You've got all these great skills. And I said, this ain't going to work. I'm not banking. You know, I, I don't think it'll work and, and I'm, I'm so sorry, but, uh, you know, ANZ is really impressive and everything, but I'm just, I can't, I'm passionate about it.

Jac Phillips: Anyway, I convinced him and he convinced me that we should give this a go a test and learn. So we did an experiment. Yeah. And I said, I'll come on a three month experiment or project or, you know, consulting sort of scenario. After one week, I went home to my husband and said, Oh my God, the bank, it has so many resources.

Jac Phillips: It has so many awesome people. I'm, I'm going to be trained. I'm going to be developed. I'm going to be invested in. We're working on incredible things and we're helping people figure out how to grow their wealth. And of course I was at that. age of my sort of early 40s were like, that was really important.

Jac Phillips: So, you know, what was going to be some three month little contract ended up being 10 years and I moved all around the bank. So that was an amazing opportunity. The best role in the bank I had was the one at the, toward the very end of my 10 year career at ANZ and that was. Leading the marketing for the ANZ private bank, but talking to ultra high net worth and high net worth people.

Jac Phillips: And the reason why that was such a heavy was because we had to be really, really creative in how we engage with huge amounts of money that were all multi bank. Private bank. So we had to, to really think beyond what, what was traditional sort of money and dive way deeper into, uh, experiential and give them access to people and information that they wouldn't otherwise have.

Jac Phillips: And, and that stretched us. So, so that was a real hoop. Going from there to the Bank of Melbourne is, is one of my career highlights for two reasons. One, because I was given huge resources to do something really provocative, and I got to work under a CEO who I reported directly to, that not only trusted my judgment, but absolutely pushed me to be provocative, pushed me to do different things and try so we could really help the Bank of Melbourne brand cut through.

Jac Phillips: And to be given that support, and, and he loved marketing. I worked for someone who really saw the value in marketing. He loved marketing. He wanted to be involved in marketing, but not to the point where he, uh, had the final say, but we had really great discussions and as a result, we did some really cool things with the Bank of Melbourne, which was owned by Westpac at the time.

Jac Phillips: And then the last gig, which was Visa. I mean, I remember pinching myself on yet another flight to somewhere exotic. You know, I was sent to the South of France to go to the Cannes Line. You know, I was sent regularly to amazing places where we would do off sites to really understand that a market in Asia, Myanmar, you know, and, and we would meet business owners and, and we as marketers would be able to use all these insights.

Jac Phillips: You know, we did campaigns, you know, I did a campaign with a comedian, Ronnie Chang, you know, we partnered. Banjo in the grass. We partnered with the fashion festival. We did so many awesome things and it was because I had the trust of a group of executives who said we need to be different. We need to cut through and who trusted myself and my team and we had awesome agency partners.

Jac Phillips: Anything I have done in my marketing career has not been done in isolation. I have been the smallest component. All I've done. It has, you know, is influence, um, connect, uh, manage up and, and sign off budgets, but the brilliance has come from my team, you know, and, and the agency partners and those, those other, uh, I guess, extended elements of our marketing that helped us achieve what we did.

Jac Phillips: And, and, and that to me has been such a, such a great experience. I've been incredibly, incredibly privileged and, um, yeah, it's been, uh, it's 

Lucy Bolan: been great. It sounds, honestly, yeah, I think you've got about 10 aha moments in all of that, even perhaps I'm sure there's a lot more, but is there any resources or, you know, any, any thought leaders or, you know, any specific, I don't know, marketers or events or books that you'd say, if you're wanting to get to the top spot one day, get a load of that, you know, start following these people or get on top of this.

Jac Phillips: Um, I, I think you can learn from everyone. I really do. I think everybody's a resource. Yeah. I mean, you know, the guy that takes our rubbish. If I have a yarn to him, I'll learn something, you know, um, it's, it's finding time. Exercise for me is a favorite resource and I know that's a blankie, but I, I, I run and I run in nature and some of my best ideas come from when I'm exercising.

Jac Phillips: Yeah. So I'm not in front of a screen because I'm always on otherwise. Uh, and where my mind can just wander. So that's a resource I absolutely tap into three, four times a week. Yeah. I'm talking to people, um, podcasts like this, Lucy, you know, access and listen to other people in their experiences where you go, Oh yeah, yeah.

Jac Phillips: Oh, I should try that. Oh, I might, might go and do that. Um, the keeping it real podcast, which is, you know, I had to say. Yeah. I'd run, you know, with, with Raoul, Gabrielle Doolin. I mean, this teaches me heaps. So yes, I'm a co host of the podcast and I'm putting forward topics, but the things I learned from listening to Raoul, the things I learned from the keepers, our listeners that send up ideas for topics or, or to share a story with us, um, or feedback or insights, um, anything Mark Ritson says.

Jac Phillips: I'm a massive fan. Mark Brinson fan. I've, I've, I've mucked around with him for some time in, in the past. Uh, he's been a great supporter of, of me and some of the work I've done. I've been a massive supporter of him. His mini NBA, do it. Absolutely do it. And if your company won't cover the cost of it, invest in yourself and do it, or it'll pay off.

Jac Phillips: You can also follow him on LinkedIn and he writes a great column for Marketing Week, which is a UK online marketing magazine. Professor Scott Galloway. Oh my God. Do I have the hots 

Lucy Bolan: for man? 

Jac Phillips: Uh, so he's. He's as naughty and rude as I am, and unwoke as I am, so, um, but he is one smart cookie. And he's got a number of platforms he's on.

Jac Phillips: His, uh, email newsletter, uh, No Malice, No Mercy, is awesome. Uh, he's got the Prof G, uh, platform, which is, which is, uh, podcasts. Um, another guy that I sort of, um, accessed just by accident a couple of years ago is an Indian gentleman who's based in the U. S. now, Rishabh Tabakawala. Okay. And he has this amazing newsletter that I get something from every week that I read it and it's called, The Future Does Not Fit Into the Containers of the Past.

Jac Phillips: Rishad Tabakawala. He's also on LinkedIn. He is Steven Bartlett, Diary of a CEO podcast. I love him. Love him. Oh, I could go on and on. I tell you, there are two people in my life or there's three, uh, my husband, but my two kids, 28 and 26, both in marketing, but in very different fields. I learned so much from them because they're right at the, the, the cusp of what's going on.

Jac Phillips: Yeah. You know, they're, they're, they're digital natives. Um, They understand technology very well and, and they're both doing really interesting things in different areas of market and learning huge amounts from them. Now the traditional stuff doesn't change. Yeah. Having a great strategy, knowing who you're targeting, you know, um, understand really clearly what the outcomes need to be.

Jac Phillips: Are you going to measure success? All of those things stay the same. It's everything that Mark Ritson speaks about. Doesn't matter what the platform is. It doesn't matter, you know, whether it's digital or whether it's traditional, whether it's below the line, through the line, above the line, all of those things that I'm just talking about, that, uh, things about, and it's interest and curiosity in people and in, in consumers and behavior, but just looking at, you know, what, where we're going with AI, I mean, it's fascinating.

Jac Phillips: You must be seeing this. I mean, what are you advising to the people you're talking to in regards to the clients you're, you're finding roles for, what are you talking to them about AI? I'd like to ask you 

Lucy Bolan: that. Yeah, look, absolutely. Far away. Quite like being asked a question on my podcast. Um, I, it's interesting.

Lucy Bolan: I've spoken to quite a few people that I'd actually consider to be, you know, AI experts is one guy. Um, Tony Gruber, he's actually written a book, AI for CEOs. And I'd say to anyone to get a load of that, because yeah, he's a smart cookie. Um, I think anyone's still figuring it out, to be honest. There's no one out there that's right now, I'd say an absolute Uber of org structures, and I think what's happening now in regards to AI, it's very much, people are very much starting to factor it in, think, but I think it's going to take another year or so before we really start to see those roles changing.

Lucy Bolan: And people start, I think there's a lot of assuming at the moment around, Oh, we're not going to need a copywriter. Well, we're going to have to change this or this is going to be, you know, maybe SEO will be affected. I spoke to a CMO recently who actually said, I think as much as marketing, yes, it's cause there's going to be changes around that.

Lucy Bolan: And I think with new technologies coming in, it'll be implicated. I think developers specifically in that back end, there's going to be, you know, changes massively where, you know. 16 or 20 stages can be done with one, you know, so it's like really starting to look at how we can upskill there and work with AI in a positive way.

Lucy Bolan: Start to think, okay, well, yeah, we've got chat DPT and look, you know, I think it's a fantastic tool. I'm very aware though, I think with it is, you know, they call it now, what is it? Synthetic slop whereby everything's just, you know, AI generated. And I can see content straight away and I'm like, Oh God, you've not written that.

Lucy Bolan: And I think now the people, you know, I want authentic content. I want more 

Jac Phillips: than 

Lucy Bolan: ever. Yeah, I crave it. You know, I don't want some computer that's backed something out. And I'm trying to believe that someone else has written it. So I think there's going to be more craving for that real huge content. if more so than ever.

Lucy Bolan: So it's going to be an interesting one and one to watch. And I think, yeah, my role, the more I see it definitely is going to be, you know, getting people that are aware of it. If you've done courses, um, there's a marketing Academy, AI workshop, Catherine Tom's runs that. So I definitely recommend, um, reaching out to her.

Lucy Bolan: She does a lot of AI workshops for various businesses. And I know she's a busy lady at the moment, so she's doing well. I that, that's a great 

Jac Phillips: answer. Look, you know, critical thinking, problem solving, using generative AI and doing that in a way that's ethical and, and, and productive. You know, they're, they're the top skills apparently that knowledge workers are gonna need to thrive.

Jac Phillips: Yeah. So, so critical thinking, problem solving and using generative ai. I use AI every day and it in different ways for different things. Um, and they're saying around one. fifth, I think it was, of all current occupations, I wrote something down here, will be replaced by artificial intelligence by 2030. But the jobs that won't be replaced, and particularly given these are jobs like marketing, where you actually rely on core human skill.

Jac Phillips: Yeah. So, you know, the traits that are going to be really difficult for AI to replicate, which is curiosity, you know, intuition, creativity, imagination. It can, AI can help spark those things. I was listening to a really great podcast the other day of a couple that were in an agency, a marketing agency that have gone off and they've created, um, a platform, an AI platform to help agencies reduce, uh, pitch time.

Jac Phillips: You know, so, so making them way more productive, but it's not just about making the pitch efficient. It's also about in sparking more curiosity, sparking more inspiration as part of this AI platform. So if you're not developing creativity, intuition, curiosity, imagination, and continuing to do that, then you aren't going to stay relevant.

Jac Phillips: And, and the big tip there is that, you know, You're not going to develop those if you're in back to back meetings and reading emails all day. 

Lucy Bolan: Absolutely. Absolutely. 100%. I mean, get it, have the, make the time, invest in yourself, as you've said. 

Jac Phillips: Yeah, I play with AI, I have a crack at it, you know, there's deep seat, there's chat GPT, there's copilot, there's so many options, then there's the visual ones, I mean, I have a hoot playing with them, you know, the kids laugh at me, but it's, if you don't use it, you lose it, right?

Jac Phillips: Or if you can't possibly. Talk about it. And I suspect, and you again should answer this one, you're the recruiter, more and more of, uh, marketing leaders are going to be expecting people to know how to use AI for efficiency and not just in the, the, the back room, not just on the development, developing side, uh, but also those that are leading and those that are, you know, running brand campaigns and things.

Jac Phillips: How can they? For efficiency and for effect, but not to replace the thinking. 

Lucy Bolan: Yeah, absolutely. I think it's, it's coming down to, I think, individuals that nowadays, you know, if you can ups, you know, be even more technically savvy across this AI that's coming through. And I say to anyone, you know, if you're thinking about upskilling, definitely AI is something you need to factor in a hundred percent, you know, like there's, there's workshops and training courses that I know that businesses are running and they're on to a winner because it's the, it's the right time people, you know, is still trying to figure this stuff out.

Jac Phillips: Absolutely. Absolutely. And I think if you're an older marketer, listen to this, and I'm not going to say what that age is. It's, it's, it's how you're feeling. I suspect don't. Let this pass you by. Don't be, don't be fearful of it. You know, I remember when email started, you know, I remember when mobile phones that were smartphones and, and, you know, when, when an Apple tablet came out, you know, an iPod and thinking, Oh my God, you know, within minutes, you figure this stuff out.

Jac Phillips: It's actually really intuitive. It's not difficult. It really isn't. It's a mindset. So always, always have a crack. 

Lucy Bolan: Absolutely. Well, Jack, it has been an absolute pleasure. I have, I feel like I could talk to you all day, to be honest. I really do. I feel like you're just this, yeah, infectious energy ball, which, yeah, it's just been so great to listen to you.

Lucy Bolan: And thank you so much for coming on the show. I've really, really enjoyed it. 

Jac Phillips: Well, thank you for inviting me on, Lucy. I've loved our conversation and like you, I think there's, you know, we're only scratching the surface. Imagine if we were in a bar with a glass. Oh my 

Lucy Bolan: gosh. Bring it on. Bring on the Cosmos.

Lucy Bolan: I'm back.

Lucy Bolan: Remember, the road to CMO isn't always linear. It's filled with challenges, decisions, and moments of transformation. Whether you're charting your course or navigating a career shift, the experiences wisdom shared today as with our guests is invaluable. Thank you for joining us. Keep dreaming big, keep pushing boundaries, and remember that your journey towards becoming a CMO is as much about the destination as it is about the growth you experience along the way.

Lucy Bolan: Until next time, continue to innovate, evolve and carve out your path to CMO.

THE END